Good post and good BicLife episode. These thoughts are about both.
I know discussions like these can pit the sermon against the worship, where the preacher thinks that "preaching the word" is the most potent. Artists say the music and other artistic pieces of the service create longer lasting shaping of the culture, because people leave with the artistic pieces "sticking" to them. As you said, they leave humming the song not the sermon. But I think comparing the two is as important as contrasting them. While sermons and songs are different in some ways, they also have a similar if not the same general purpose.
In fact, I think that is part of your point. Songs are not just for creative fun. They do more than add an aesthetic to the service. They communicate theology. They pass on and share our common identity and core beliefs. I would add that songs can stir us to action. I have often felt conviction and the desire for repentance during the singing portion of worship. Isn't all that what sermons do too?
Why I bring it up is that you and Scott both mentioned that the sermon is preached and then it is done, as if it has no life beyond the hearing of it. I would hope that your goal when preaching is that people leave "humming" the sermon. When you are in your study preparing, you are shaped by the Word. If your goal of preaching isn't to also shape the congregation and in turn the culture, then your assertion will probably be correct. The songs will shape the congregation more than the sermons. But it's possible for the songs and sermons to work together.
I know that both you and Scott preach with that goal in mind, but I wanted to stick up for preaching! I can only imagine that when the disciples walked by a farmer spreading seed that it brought to mind Jesus' parable of the sower and his explanation of that parable. In other words, Jesus taught deep spiritual truths that are at the heart of the gospel, AND he did it in a way that it would be "humming" in their minds after he preached it. Now that you've talked about how songs should be more like sermons, perhaps a future episode can be about how sermons should be more like songs!
OK. . . so that brings me to preaching a sermon series on Lost. . .
:)
You knew it was coming. . .
Your question to Karah was, is that culture creating? Just some thoughts from a retired pastor. My current church does an annual "At The Movies" series. They show multiple clips from a movie, weaving in thoughts from the pastor (who is also on video usually sitting in his home...I think it's a way to give the preaching team a break for the summer, a preacher is not required on stage!) For a 25 minute sermon perhaps 15 minutes is footage of the movie. It's entertaining. The congregation is encouraged to invite people because of that. They usually pick a movie that has a good message to it, and they find scripture that supports that message. I'm not saying there is no place for that kind of sermon, but I would say that is more copying the culture than creating it. I rarely hear a prophetic voice speaking INTO the culture during these sermons. In my opinion its better to use the world's artistic creations to ask questions than to answer them. If the culture around us is asking a question or communicating a fear, yearning, or temptation that the gospel speaks to, I think it's appropriate to use those forms of art to creatively raise questions, fears, yearnings, etc.. Of course, there are times when the world's culture is getting something right that the church is ignoring. It may be right to use those art forms as well to communicate, even if to convict the church when the world around them is acting more holy than they are. Anyway, just wanted to say that the conversation is probably less binary than does it create culture or copy it?
Hopefully we used the Lost series in a gospel honoring way, but I'm not going back to review it. . . just in case we didn't. . .
Hey Paul! Awesome insight, as usual! Yes, I do try to preach in such a way that it resonates throughout the weeks and years after it's been taught - hum-able. Certainly I'm better at it some weeks than others!
But your point about using modes or creations of culture to ASK questions rather than answer them is very interesting. I know from our experience together that you are really good at asking questions - questions that actually get you to think and ponder. So it seems to be a very on-brand observation from you that we can use our culture's creations to ask questions, to critique or reveal. Often we consume our culture mindlessly, without thought or evaluation. Using that same culture to interrogate our beliefs or our influences is so important.
I remember hearing you describe sermons once as being like a balanced diet of food. People usually do not remember individual meals, but they probably remember a few of them, for special occasions or the quality was incredible. But the idea is that if people are getting a healthy diet week in and week out, they will be much healthier. So even if they don't remember a certain meal specifically, if it was healthy, it helps with the overall health of the body. Sermons are so much like this in that perhaps not everyone will remember every sermon I preach, but if the sermons are healthy, if they are from the Spirit and from his Word, they will contribute to a healthy body (God's people). So I fully am on board with sermons being important. I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't! But yes, as you observed, the point here was to say that our songs matter as well. Thank you so much for your thoughts!!
:) I felt like the appropriate response to my comments would have been an eye roll... "Of course the old preacher has to defend preaching." Thanks for taking a more gracious approach! I know you have a heart for preaching AND a heart for music and the arts in expressing the gospel. I have fond memories of working on those together with you!
My recollection is that you were an excellent worship leader, not just at the parts that involved standing up and ushering the congregation into the presence of God, but also at leading the small group of us behind you trying to express what Jesus meant to us through the instruments in our hands.
Good post and good BicLife episode. These thoughts are about both.
I know discussions like these can pit the sermon against the worship, where the preacher thinks that "preaching the word" is the most potent. Artists say the music and other artistic pieces of the service create longer lasting shaping of the culture, because people leave with the artistic pieces "sticking" to them. As you said, they leave humming the song not the sermon. But I think comparing the two is as important as contrasting them. While sermons and songs are different in some ways, they also have a similar if not the same general purpose.
In fact, I think that is part of your point. Songs are not just for creative fun. They do more than add an aesthetic to the service. They communicate theology. They pass on and share our common identity and core beliefs. I would add that songs can stir us to action. I have often felt conviction and the desire for repentance during the singing portion of worship. Isn't all that what sermons do too?
Why I bring it up is that you and Scott both mentioned that the sermon is preached and then it is done, as if it has no life beyond the hearing of it. I would hope that your goal when preaching is that people leave "humming" the sermon. When you are in your study preparing, you are shaped by the Word. If your goal of preaching isn't to also shape the congregation and in turn the culture, then your assertion will probably be correct. The songs will shape the congregation more than the sermons. But it's possible for the songs and sermons to work together.
I know that both you and Scott preach with that goal in mind, but I wanted to stick up for preaching! I can only imagine that when the disciples walked by a farmer spreading seed that it brought to mind Jesus' parable of the sower and his explanation of that parable. In other words, Jesus taught deep spiritual truths that are at the heart of the gospel, AND he did it in a way that it would be "humming" in their minds after he preached it. Now that you've talked about how songs should be more like sermons, perhaps a future episode can be about how sermons should be more like songs!
OK. . . so that brings me to preaching a sermon series on Lost. . .
:)
You knew it was coming. . .
Your question to Karah was, is that culture creating? Just some thoughts from a retired pastor. My current church does an annual "At The Movies" series. They show multiple clips from a movie, weaving in thoughts from the pastor (who is also on video usually sitting in his home...I think it's a way to give the preaching team a break for the summer, a preacher is not required on stage!) For a 25 minute sermon perhaps 15 minutes is footage of the movie. It's entertaining. The congregation is encouraged to invite people because of that. They usually pick a movie that has a good message to it, and they find scripture that supports that message. I'm not saying there is no place for that kind of sermon, but I would say that is more copying the culture than creating it. I rarely hear a prophetic voice speaking INTO the culture during these sermons. In my opinion its better to use the world's artistic creations to ask questions than to answer them. If the culture around us is asking a question or communicating a fear, yearning, or temptation that the gospel speaks to, I think it's appropriate to use those forms of art to creatively raise questions, fears, yearnings, etc.. Of course, there are times when the world's culture is getting something right that the church is ignoring. It may be right to use those art forms as well to communicate, even if to convict the church when the world around them is acting more holy than they are. Anyway, just wanted to say that the conversation is probably less binary than does it create culture or copy it?
Hopefully we used the Lost series in a gospel honoring way, but I'm not going back to review it. . . just in case we didn't. . .
Hey Paul! Awesome insight, as usual! Yes, I do try to preach in such a way that it resonates throughout the weeks and years after it's been taught - hum-able. Certainly I'm better at it some weeks than others!
But your point about using modes or creations of culture to ASK questions rather than answer them is very interesting. I know from our experience together that you are really good at asking questions - questions that actually get you to think and ponder. So it seems to be a very on-brand observation from you that we can use our culture's creations to ask questions, to critique or reveal. Often we consume our culture mindlessly, without thought or evaluation. Using that same culture to interrogate our beliefs or our influences is so important.
I remember hearing you describe sermons once as being like a balanced diet of food. People usually do not remember individual meals, but they probably remember a few of them, for special occasions or the quality was incredible. But the idea is that if people are getting a healthy diet week in and week out, they will be much healthier. So even if they don't remember a certain meal specifically, if it was healthy, it helps with the overall health of the body. Sermons are so much like this in that perhaps not everyone will remember every sermon I preach, but if the sermons are healthy, if they are from the Spirit and from his Word, they will contribute to a healthy body (God's people). So I fully am on board with sermons being important. I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't! But yes, as you observed, the point here was to say that our songs matter as well. Thank you so much for your thoughts!!
:) I felt like the appropriate response to my comments would have been an eye roll... "Of course the old preacher has to defend preaching." Thanks for taking a more gracious approach! I know you have a heart for preaching AND a heart for music and the arts in expressing the gospel. I have fond memories of working on those together with you!
My recollection is that you were an excellent worship leader, not just at the parts that involved standing up and ushering the congregation into the presence of God, but also at leading the small group of us behind you trying to express what Jesus meant to us through the instruments in our hands.
Thanks Ian! I really appreciate that. It means a lot coming from you! I enjoyed making music with you. Miss that.